[Waldo]

There is some discussion going on on GoHeavy and WE about an American girl who got suspended for doping. This post has nothing to do about that really, but it reminded me about a great site I use all the time, and I thought I would share it. The site is for Canadian and UK athletes (http://www.didglobal.com/page/didenqs/search). Here you can search your drug by Name, or in Canada by DIN (which is a long number that you can usually find directly on the product, for almost every medical product in the country, even toothpaste!) If you're ever in doubt, you can check here. Canadians can also call CCES anytime.

Walter

[Koing]

Good post.

Pinned for everybody to see.

Koing

[Scorpio]

How much do steroids add to a person's lifts? I'm not thinking about using them...there is a guy who I workout with who claims that they don't make much of a difference, but I'm like, if that's the case, then why the hell do other countries use them?

This guy proceeded to call me a "ignorant American" and then accused me of saying that I'm using the steroid excuse as a reason why Americans do not lift well compared to the rest of the world...

He agreed with me that steroids may add as much as 10-15% to a person's lifts, but he doesn't see that that is a BIG ass difference. This guy claims that it is due to American's training programs and talent identification...I think that's bullshit, because there are many Americans who use a Soviet or Bulgarian style program, but they don't have medal winning results on the world stage. He does not get that drugs can make a tremendous difference in one's training program (i.e. faster recovery).

I also don't think it has to do with talent either, because I personally saw Sergo Chakhoyan miss a 157 snatch badly and a 180 jerk at the 2005 Mermet Cup, as an 85...a year earlier in Athens he snatched 175! He lifts no more than the 85s in the U.S. or Canada when he's off the drugs!

I do think however, that the Americans can lift among the best in the world, but that we will have to get over the hump without the use of performance enhancing drugs...personally my goal is to clean and jerk 200 and more as a 77.

Anyone have any thoughts? Mike and others?

This post has been edited by Scorpio: 12 October 2007 - 10:15 AM

[Mike Wittmer]

It has been reported that steriods add 8-10% to your lifts. Some more or less. A very strong lifter with poor technique will probably not get as much from them as the more technically proficient lifter.

As for catching the rest of the world, we need more numbers. I'm hoping that improved drug testing brings some back to the pack.

[knobbers]

you are both partially right.

there is not a proper talent ID system in North america (for weightlifting) and no formally run program to bring athletes up through the ranks. If an athlete is performing well from north america it is usually due to talent and drive and great personal sacrifice to be the best they can be.

steroids DO work (not from personal experience) but I am not stupid and have seen the results first hand and have known lots of athletes that have proven they work. There is a reason why many eleite athletes use them is it is not because they don't work very well. Look at East Germany's Olympic medal count in the 70's and 80's that alone should prove how much they can help.

American and Canadian athletes have used steroids for decades without haveing any world champions in weightlifting, so it does take much more than drugs.

[Scorpio]

you are both partially right.

there is not a proper talent ID system in North america (for weightlifting) and no formally run program to bring athletes up through the ranks. If an athlete is performing well from north america it is usually due to talent and drive and great personal sacrifice to be the best they can be.

steroids DO work (not from personal experience) but I am not stupid and have seen the results first hand and have known lots of athletes that have proven they work. There is a reason why many eleite athletes use them is it is not because they don't work very well. Look at East Germany's Olympic medal count in the 70's and 80's that alone should prove how much they can help.

American and Canadian athletes have used steroids for decades without haveing any world champions in weightlifting, so it does take much more than drugs.

I have seen Sagir's results when he is off of steroids...a 150 snatch and a 170 clean and jerk as a 77. I wonder if he really is more "talented" than American weightlifters...
Then again though, what maybe perceived as a talented athlete in Turkey or Bulgaria maybe only an average kid here in the States, because obviously the bigger the population the easier it is to find greater talent...

Mike, do you know if the US sent lifters to train with the Russians and Bulgarians back in the 80s? This guy in my gym I'm talking about also claimed that it did occur back then, but I have never heard of such a story, and I'm wondering if this guy was trying to make some BS up to win his argument...

This post has been edited by Scorpio: 12 October 2007 - 11:39 AM

[Mike Wittmer]

I have seen Sagir's results when he is off of steroids...a 150 snatch and a 170 clean and jerk as a 77. I wonder if he really is more "talented" than American weightlifters...
Then again though, what maybe perceived as a talented athlete in Turkey or Bulgaria maybe only an average kid here in the States, because obviously the bigger the population the easier it is to find greater talent...

Mike, do you know if the US sent lifters to train with the Russians and Bulgarians back in the 80s? This guy in my gym I'm talking about also claimed that it did occur back then, but I have never heard of such a story, and I'm wondering if this guy was trying to make some BS up to win his argument...

In the '80s? I don't think so. I know Bob Hoffman sent Phil Grippaldi to Russia for a while in the '70s. I can't think of any of the guys I knew back then ('80s) that may have done that. In the mid '70s, then "national" coach Carl Miller spent several weeks in Bulgaria observing the national team and came back with some interesting information.

As for Sagir, Chad Vaughn, Matt Bruce and Lance Frye all do 320. Also, interesting that without drug use the C&J drops more than the snatch. That seems very typical and makes sense.

As for the talent base, I think many "talented" Americans are persuing other sports. Who knows? If Taner Sagir lived in the US he may have been a soccer player. If he lived in Canada he might be playing hockey.

[Mike Wittmer]

you are both partially right.

there is not a proper talent ID system in North america (for weightlifting) and no formally run program to bring athletes up through the ranks. If an athlete is performing well from north america it is usually due to talent and drive and great personal sacrifice to be the best they can be.

There are market principles in place here. Talented 11, 12, 13 and 14 y/o are interested in sports that will provide college scholarships. By the time they are 18, and don't have the football scholarship, it's a little too late to take up weightlifting. Not that they can't do it and have some success, but compete internationally, no.

[IceTray]

I am on about a half of a cup of the juice a day.

[Scorpio]

There are market principles in place here. Talented 11, 12, 13 and 14 y/o are interested in sports that will provide college scholarships. By the time they are 18, and don't have the football scholarship, it's a little too late to take up weightlifting. Not that they can't do it and have some success, but compete internationally, no.

Personally, I don't think the Eastern European lifters are any more talented than American or Canadian lifters, but of course there are always exceptions like Suleymanoglu and Zacharevich, guys who were so far ahead of their closest competition when they both were at their prime...

I do think that a major reason is funding, there is not enough money that goes to support our best lifters, so that they could commit themselves more to our sport and to help deal with the other financial matters of life (i.e. food, school, etc,.)

[raffiki]

I do think that a major reason is funding, there is not enough money that goes to support our best lifters, so that they could commit themselves more to our sport and to help deal with the other financial matters of life (i.e. food, school, etc,.)

Not in America. If a sport pays well at the top, the parents can support their kid. If our best lifters were payed well, you would see more kids getting into.

[Scorpio]

Not in America. If a sport pays well at the top, the parents can support their kid. If our best lifters were payed well, you would see more kids getting into.

That's what I'm saying...in America there isn't enough funding for our best lifters

[Judas]

8-10%? 15%? I hope you guys are talking about weightlifters specifically...

In POWERLIFTING (read: much less technique-driven), i've seen night and day results when some guy who's lifting i know goes on the junk. DRASTIC results. Hell, one guy in our gym, this 180lb thug who paid our old powerlifting guru to train him for two months (didn't tell the poor guy he went on D-Bol...) started with a bench ov 200lbs, two months later he cranked out 315lbs. Two months. Technically, he started at a 185lb bench, but i'm certain he was for for 200 at the time. All his lifts went ballistic. He put on almost 20lbs. He WAS on good shit, and a very aggressive cycle (he was also a drug-dealer, go figure...), and he also got so aggressive and edgy after two months you couldn't even talk to the guy. He went off cycle and we never saw him again (wonder why...). It was funny, our trainer, who HATES drugs, didn't know. When the guy hit 315, he finally brought himself to ask, and the thug was honest about it, the training subsequently stopped there. Until that point, he (the trainer) was pretty damn proud ov himself, thinking he could put almost 300lbs on a guys total in two months... he thought he was the best damn trainer in the world!

Anyways, gives you an idea ov what this shit can do. Hell, just the prohormones can blast any goof's strength through the roof. Add in quality strength training (rare in most steroid users i find) and you have a monstrous combo. I can see what Mike is saying though, my PC&J is uuuuugLEE... ALL strength. I'd get a massive boost from drugs on my PC&J. I couldn't imagine what a clean guy who lifts like Kolecki would get out ov the same cycle...

America HAS its own version ov weightlifting... its called football. Canada's weightlifting is hockey. Any appreciable talent in strength or athleticism found in the Americas is gonna get lured into the big money sports, with very few exceptions. Sad but true. Back this up by how many top powerlifters are ex-football players. Well past their athletic glory many ov these are at the top ov the PL game. What numbers would they have had they been into strength sports from the start? and without the career-ending injuries?

I'll get into a brawl for this one, but i also think the work-ethic is different in Europe than here. This probably shows up in weightlifting as strongly as the football angle. I just spent three weeks immersed in and studying the European culture over there, and i've gotta say they are MUCH more driven towards quality over quantity. That permeates everything.

[Judas]

There are market principles in place here. Talented 11, 12, 13 and 14 y/o are interested in sports that will provide college scholarships. By the time they are 18, and don't have the football scholarship, it's a little too late to take up weightlifting. Not that they can't do it and have some success, but compete internationally, no.

Great... so what hope do i have starting at 33...?

[Scorpio]

8-10%? 15%? I hope you guys are talking about weightlifters specifically...

In POWERLIFTING (read: much less technique-driven), i've seen night and day results when some guy who's lifting i know goes on the junk. DRASTIC results. Hell, one guy in our gym, this 180lb thug who paid our old powerlifting guru to train him for two months (didn't tell the poor guy he went on D-Bol...) started with a bench ov 200lbs, two months later he cranked out 315lbs. Two months. Technically, he started at a 185lb bench, but i'm certain he was for for 200 at the time. All his lifts went ballistic. He put on almost 20lbs. He WAS on good shit, and a very aggressive cycle (he was also a drug-dealer, go figure...), and he also got so aggressive and edgy after two months you couldn't even talk to the guy. He went off cycle and we never saw him again (wonder why...). It was funny, our trainer, who HATES drugs, didn't know. When the guy hit 315, he finally brought himself to ask, and the thug was honest about it, the training subsequently stopped there. Until that point, he (the trainer) was pretty damn proud ov himself, thinking he could put almost 300lbs on a guys total in two months... he thought he was the best damn trainer in the world!

Anyways, gives you an idea ov what this shit can do. Hell, just the prohormones can blast any goof's strength through the roof. Add in quality strength training (rare in most steroid users i find) and you have a monstrous combo. I can see what Mike is saying though, my PC&J is uuuuugLEE... ALL strength. I'd get a massive boost from drugs on my PC&J. I couldn't imagine what a clean guy who lifts like Kolecki would get out ov the same cycle...

America HAS its own version ov weightlifting... its called football. Canada's weightlifting is hockey. Any appreciable talent in strength or athleticism found in the Americas is gonna get lured into the big money sports, with very few exceptions. Sad but true. Back this up by how many top powerlifters are ex-football players. Well past their athletic glory many ov these are at the top ov the PL game. What numbers would they have had they been into strength sports from the start? and without the career-ending injuries?

I'll get into a brawl for this one, but i also think the work-ethic is different in Europe than here. This probably shows up in weightlifting as strongly as the football angle. I just spent three weeks immersed in and studying the European culture over there, and i've gotta say they are MUCH more driven towards quality over quantity. That permeates everything.

8-10% and 15% we were talking about weightlifting specifically. When you were saying that any appreciable talent in strength or athleticism in America or Canada will be in the big money sports, I found that to be true, but only so for the heavier weight classes. What about the kids who are too small to play college or pro football? These kids could be our best lifters we've ever had in the lighter weight classes and even in the middle classes (77, 85, 94). I've met many good athletes who could've been Division I athletes (i.e. they possessed the strength and athleticism) but who lacked the size to play...

I agree though, the work-ethic is different in Europe and other parts of the world than in America...you could easily see this with some immigrant families in America. Many times these immigrants come with nothing but through hard work from them and their children they provide enough for their families to live and for their children to get a good education...

[Mike Wittmer]

Great... so what hope do i have starting at 33...?

I don't know. Have you ever lifted weights before? Any strength base? I don't think one can take up weightlifting at 33 and be a national champion. But, there is no reason you can't get to a reasonable level and enjoy it, maybe qualify for a national level competition.

I just don't think you can get to an international level unless starting very young. And, in America, the young kids are playing football, hockey, baseball, etc.

[Mike Wittmer]

What about the kids who are too small to play college or pro football? These kids could be our best lifters we've ever had in the lighter weight classes and even in the middle classes (77, 85, 94). I've met many good athletes who could've been Division I athletes (i.e. they possessed the strength and athleticism) but who lacked the size to play...

They're still trying for that college scholarship. Some wind up playing D3 or NAIA ball. Some wrestle. Most are through with organized sports at age 18. They could still lift and enjoy it, but they wasted (weightlifting wise) precious years when they could have been honing those neuromotor pathways with the 1000s of reps necessary to compete on the highest level.

[Judas]

I don't know. Have you ever lifted weights before? Any strength base? I don't think one can take up weightlifting at 33 and be a national champion. But, there is no reason you can't get to a reasonable level and enjoy it, maybe qualify for a national level competition.

I just don't think you can get to an international level unless starting very young. And, in America, the young kids are playing football, hockey, baseball, etc.

I've been powerlifting for three years prior. Went from a 715 total at 180 to over a 1450 total at 215 in less than 3 1/2 years (thats strict bench and olympic squats). All raw and beltless. Even the way i lifted and trained in powerlifting lends itself to weightlifting - always worked on speed, extreme ROM's, core and LOTS ov overhead work. Powerlifters have been critical ov my methods since night one. Problem is, i had bad shoulder flexibility BEFORE i put 200lbs on my bench and 8 inches on my chest. I can dislocate enough to snatch decently, my coaches all say i have good form, but every single snatch causes impinging pain in the shoulder joints. I'm not sure how far i should go working through it...

Assuming (optimistically...) i could do my gym maxes in a comp, i've got 55kg to go to qualify for Nationals. That pain is disconcerting however...

[Koing]

Talent pool imo and other sports and funding.

I gurantee if America had more funding and more people ACTUALLY lifting you'd producie some SICK SICK Weightlifters. Look at the INSANE athleticism in the NBA and NFL!

One Football that plays for Chelsea (famous English Football club) was trainng at Crytal Palce, with the Oly coach, Keith. He made a comment that 'we' (refering to the weightlifters) do what they for fun and with no monetary gain. He on the other hand was pulling a ridiculous £50k a week ~ $100k!!!!!!! to play train and play Premiereship Football.

I do weightlifting for fun. My job pays the bills and allows me to squat a lunchtimes.

There is a PATHETIC £50 a WEEK funding for the top guys in England. You CAN NOT be a professional athlete on £50 a week FUNDING. What the hell is THAT ABOUT?! Kids flipping burgers in a day get more...

But the fact remains America is not doing so great on the World stage in Weightlifting. Do you do weightlifting and get sod all or do you do another sport and you get a lot more money? Theres just no love for weightlifting in America for the countries population. Much like in England.

I've heard China has about 10'000 coaches and more lifters then the rest of the World put together! BUT if you figure that in, they really aren't doing that well with the 85kg+ guys onwards. But Chinese guys aren't that big in general...don't get me wrong China win a lot of medals but not for how many lifters they actual have!

Koing

[Judas]

Talent pool imo and other sports and funding.

I gurantee if America had more funding and more people ACTUALLY lifting you'd producie some SICK SICK Weightlifters. Look at the INSANE athleticism in the NBA and NFL!

One Football that plays for Chelsea (famous English Football club) was trainng at Crytal Palce, with the Oly coach, Keith. He made a comment that 'we' (refering to the weightlifters) do what they for fun and with no monetary gain. He on the other hand was pulling a ridiculous £50k a week ~ $100k!!!!!!! to play train and play Premiereship Football.

I do weightlifting for fun. My job pays the bills and allows me to squat a lunchtimes.

There is a PATHETIC £50 a WEEK funding for the top guys in England. You CAN NOT be a professional athlete on £50 a week FUNDING. What the hell is THAT ABOUT?! Kids flipping burgers in a day get more...

But the fact remains America is not doing so great on the World stage in Weightlifting. Do you do weightlifting and get sod all or do you do another sport and you get a lot more money? Theres just no love for weightlifting in America for the countries population. Much like in England.

I've heard China has about 10'000 coaches and more lifters then the rest of the World put together! BUT if you figure that in, they really aren't doing that well with the 85kg+ guys onwards. But Chinese guys aren't that big in general...don't get me wrong China win a lot of medals but not for how many lifters they actual have!

Koing

Yes, but i wonder how many ov those Chinese lifters actually like or want to be weightlifters, rather than doing it because its an avenue out ov poverty. Basketball, for example, is a way out ov poverty for many black kids in the states, so the drive is there. But the fame and the love ov the game is also there. Athletic culture is as big as gangsta culture in the states. When's the last time you saw a weightlifting commercial in America?

I also think its interesting that China has no interest in powerlifting. That could be telling. With weightlifting, theres a shot at Olympic gold, and international glory. With powerlifting, there is none ov this, and very few international competitors. Poor countries the size and population ov NYC send more lifters than China...

[Ender]

How much does drug usage differ in weightlifting than say bodybuilding? I'm guessing the amount and frequency are different.

[Mike Wittmer]

How much does drug usage differ in weightlifting than say bodybuilding? I'm guessing the amount and frequency are different.

Yes, I was at the Arnold last weekend and there were quite a few "comic book" physiques walking around.

[Judas]

Hell, one guy in our gym, this 180lb thug who paid our old powerlifting guru to train him for two months (didn't tell the poor guy he went on D-Bol...) started with a bench ov 200lbs, two months later he cranked out 315lbs. Two months. Technically, he started at a 185lb bench, but i'm certain he was for for 200 at the time. All his lifts went ballistic. He put on almost 20lbs. He WAS on good shit, and a very aggressive cycle (he was also a drug-dealer, go figure...), and he also got so aggressive and edgy after two months you couldn't even talk to the guy. He went off cycle and we never saw him again (wonder why...). It was funny, our trainer, who HATES drugs, didn't know. When the guy hit 315, he finally brought himself to ask, and the thug was honest about it, the training subsequently stopped there. Until that point, he (the trainer) was pretty damn proud ov himself, thinking he could put almost 300lbs on a guys total in two months... he thought he was the best damn trainer in the world!

Heh... an update on this thug guy. D-bol apparently does NOT make one bulletproof. Dude was shot to death on his front lawn last week. No surprise really...

[jgarza]

what type of drugs do olympic lifters tend to take anyway?

I assume it's different for those who need to build mass for a higher weight class and those who are where, or close to where, they intend to be, and just want to improve training capacity and get strong as fuck

I imagine it's a LOT different than PL or BB (LDO)

[Judas]

what type of drugs do olympic lifters tend to take anyway?

I assume it's different for those who need to build mass for a higher weight class and those who are where, or close to where, they intend to be, and just want to improve training capacity and get strong as fuck

I imagine it's a LOT different than PL or BB (LDO)

I'd be inclined to say that the emphasis would be far less on what the drug does performance-wise, and primarily based on what they can get away with. Drug potency hasn't changed much since the 50's. New steroids are pretty much designed around passing drug tests where the less current ones get put on WADA's shit-list. If there was zero drug testing, there would be FAR less choice out there for the user. You wouldn't need it, the ol' D-bomb would work just fine.